Thread for Organizational Systems and Their Implications for a Chatroom Index | New Thread | Reply | Close | Stick | Delete  Organizational Systems and Their Implications for a Chatroom Stoney 10:27pm, February 27, 2009 [Edit] [Delete] ***Although this post is biased toward dice systems, I hope this will be a discussion about brainstorming ideas for organizational systems in general, like the economy, crafting, etc., even faction organization. Mark has been doing an interesting flowchart for the NR government structure, this seems like the perfect place for discussion of similar kinds of systems!*** Before I start I just want to get some things clear. THIS IS NOT about “making people play by rules” or something like that, it’s about telling people what options and kinds of rules there are, and telling them about the implications/consequences. Maybe advocating for using these rules in certain situations means that we agree amongst ourselves to use them, and don’t need to involve the administrators (or maybe certain administrators want to adjudicate it). But freeform doesn’t have to be totally free, there can be rules agreed to amongst individuals. Yesterday, for the first time ever that I know of in an official RP, we used the dice to add an element of chance to the game. The idea of success on an 8 or higher gave us a 65% chance for success on any task (with V suggesting that success could happen on a result of lower than 8 if you were particularly skilled). This system worked for our purposes, and V and I both wondered how we might improve it without having to implement every d20 rule in the book (which is, I agree, complicated). I’m not advocating that we use this system in every roleplay, nor am I a hardliner who wants to compromise the integrity of freeform. I prefer freeform in most places, and I think freeform works best absolutely for about 80% of the roleplaying done at SoD. Yet I think also that the other 20% of situations are important, and interesting, because they highlight possibilities. Which is why I would advocate a totally voluntary system of d20 to ease awkward combat situations, help the admins manage the economy, and most importantly for fun! I want this thread to be a discussion of how far we might go implementing certain d20-like systems, and in what situations it might be best, and I also want this to be a good informational post, because I am offering anyone who wants it a way of getting the Star Wars d20 rulebooks (IM me at Stoneneedle if interested). Here’s a preliminary survey of the issues I think are associated with putting some elements of these type of non-freeform systems into our chat, and what pros and cons are associated with freeform and dice-based systems (naturally ignoring the potential consequences of d20 would be dishonest, though I want to make it clear that I think the pros outweigh the cons in some crucial ways). Some Problems with Pure Freeform - People dispute even the smallest details of combat. - No matter how creative you are, you may not get results if the other person simply does not want to take damage. It sounds terrible, but one point of combat is to defeat the opponent. A big thing in freeform is to have interesting combat, which I agree with totally, but I don’t think that’s compromised by also having a dice-determined result. - The economy is, well, non-existent. Players don’t know how much money they might have and how much they can spend, so I think it might be interesting to have a conversation about kinds of money systems. D20 Modern did something interesting with “purchase rolls,” allowing for abstract credit systems to be accounted for instead of just assigning price tags to things and giving people stacks of cash (or the equivalent in credits). - There’s no measure of success or failure. Sometimes we have understood measures, like how many people are gangraping a single player (we generally expect that player to lose), or who has superior weaponry, or who is the more “veteran” player and has a fearsome reputation, but this is completely unfair. Even Darth Vader, who has a persona and reputation of fearsomeness, also took some hits when dueling with Luke in The Empire Strikes Back. The first time you watched that movie, it was not guaranteed that Vader would win, though it was sure as hell foreshadowed a lot, but I would advocate that luck should be a factor, especially in something as dangerous and unpredictable as combat. Possible Solutions to Freeform’s Difficulties - A system of rules could reduce OOC disputes about combat. Even the most veteran of players get into these arguments about what’s more realistic or plausible, but the fact of the matter is that Star Wars is not “realistic,” nor is it scientific, but we like to think that it is at least internally consistent. As such, we make analogies and metaphors from the books or movies that we think apply, but this method is in my opinion lacking. - The system rewards ingenuity, but it also has good limitations. For example, a Tech Specialist may not be able to fight as well as a Soldier, but the techie can often innovate interesting items that level the playing field in combat a bit more. Rather than argue about who has the better equipment, a set of concrete statistics (always subject to moderator approval of course) could really spice things up. - The rules allow for specialization that basic freeform characterization cannot always account for. Say for example I made a character who was generally a good investigator, but later I wanted them to be good in combat as well. In the current system I would just say he has a really good (or really nasty) kind of gun, or rocket launcher, or similar. Because there’s no base attack/weapon proficiency system in freeform, who’s to debate my skill with the weapon? With basic rules of skills/combat proficiencies, different characters can specialize, and then they’re largely confined to that role, until they advance a level and can choose to branch out or continue specializing. Isn’t roleplay more interesting when you’re searching for someone to help you because they have the skills you want? (I don’t think people should openly showcase their stats, but some may advertise in an ‘in character’ manner what they’re good at). Problems with Non-freeform Systems and Some Solutions to Them: - The system could increase character death, as dice add elements of fate and luck. But I think that even in freeform we already cherish, covet, and are cautious with our main characters, so maybe higher risk to characters would be okay if it were secondary and tertiary characters put at risk. The rules for death could even be softened in certain ways, as certain healers (doctors or even Jedi healers) could bring certain characters back to life (unless there are mitigating factors like irreparable brain damage or disintegration). Think too about the possibility of reviving plots involving clones. - We should never get more interested in the rules and/or roll of the dice than the description and actual roleplaying, and the rules should ALWAYS be abandoned sooner than we abandon creative character ideas. My big suggestion and want is that we, to at least a tiny extent, systematize actions and have rules under which creativity happens so that people avoid getting CHEATED! Freeform is always cheating me in combat, I avoid it like the plague nowadays. What about you guys? If we’re all mostly happy about the outcome of combats, then it seems there’s less of a need for rules, but if not… - There’s always the worry that the rules could be bastardized and manipulated, but it seems to me that any system has got to be fairer than no system. Disagreements could crop up about the application of rules to individual situations, and constant arguments about that seem counterproductive. Will rule moderators be enough, and how different would their application of the rules be? Maybe people can be entrusted to GM themselves to an extent, and moderate combat by agreeing to take the value of the rolls and their respective skills, but if that becomes problematic, someone will need to step in—how many people should have the authority to do so? - Shitty stats always make me unhappy, and so there’s always the fear that a few rolls could propel your character ahead or make them shitty. As such I would propose a point-buying system (as much as I hate it) in order to (again) level the playing field. - Skill would not necessarily have to only exist with those who know the rules well. For example, if you want a character that’s good with guns, you could get a more experienced player to help you with all the various ranged weapon feats. Exploits could hopefully be limited through gameplay and testing. - Limits won’t need to be placed on how many characters you have, but if the amount of credits your character is given upon registration is fixed, it would make sense to limit the amount of characters you have who know each other or even are in the same faction. - The rules should be entirely voluntary, as I myself am not sure I would want to subject my most beloved character, like Nyevin, to them (and yesterday it seemed General Kliv had a pretty close swipe with death just because of shitty rolling). Different Systems for Discussion V and I know the Revised Core Rules system best, but some of you may play Saga, some of you may have interesting insights from other systems, like AD&D/GURPS/White Wolf, whatever you can think of, even non diced-based systems, just possible mechanics or systems of organization. If it’s an interesting rule that you think answers the problems I’ve outlined (or a problem you have), post it up! But the idea here is to figure out what could work for SoD, like V and I were brainstorming yesterday as we were playing, but a few things seem clear from what we’ve discussed so far: - We probably wouldn’t want to have an all or nothing system, and that’s exactly what I think freeform is. We shouldn’t be all freeform, or all SWd20, but mostly freeform (75-90% range of all RPs?) and a tiny bit of rules for planned RPs/major plot events/etc. Wouldn’t it be easier for everyone if instead of flooding the chat with arguments about what’s more realistic we just dueled it out using stats and dice, managing it between the two of them? Or do you think they’d just start arguing about the d20 system? - Just a few small rules: As V aptly pointed out with the system he started doing, we could just roll d20 for task resolution and not even for damage, and use broad categories of skills that allow you to outline your character’s “niche” by being able to succeed on a lower d20 roll than your fellow party members on that kind of roll. Examples of broad party roles could include Shooter, Melee Combatant, Infiltrator, Expert, etc., and maybe you could even select 2 roles. This I would dub a more “barebones” approach to rules. - Heavy rules (and dynamic versus static character level): If people want to, they could RP and use a system of d20 (I would recommend RCR) and adhere to it and appoint a “rules moderator” (with no official capacity in chat) and slowly advance. Now there are only 20 levels, which in some way correspond to character power, so if everyone got to advance it could very quickly become too unfitted to what the Star Wars world looks like (only characters like Yoda and Palpatine are 20th level, and there shouldn’t be very many of these kinds of characters in an entire galaxy). What if the rules about level were fairly fixed over the years (years real-time) instead, with relatively little XP? How would you organize who got to be more powerful? By hierarchy in a faction, with more powerful leaders being higher level (though probably in non-combat classes in the case of NR or Empire), or should each player get a high-level character (10-12th level) and a secondary mid-level character (6th or so level) and then low level (1-4) characters, in a system that stays pretty static, except for extreme RP events? To me this seems like a fascinating issue to discuss, dynamic versus static character level, and whether level is determined by faction status/membership or by player, or by something else!   Gany 1:52am, February 28, 2009 [Edit] [Delete] For myself, being a non-tabletop player, with no real background in any of these d20 rules of which you speak, I can say that I don't mind including the occasional roll of the dice in a planned RP, like the Gree Expedition last night. And the idea of people using dice in combat to avoid the annoying arguments doesn't really bother me all that much either-- but I don't want to HAVE to worry about rolling or stats. Since my characters are generally non-combatants, employing dice in battles doesn't bother me, because I'm not usually doing the fighting. :) Regardless of dice, killing off someone else's character should be something that's agreed to, in my opinion. I mean, it just seems like the considerate thing to do. By all means employ dice to make fights fairer though. Why not? Anyway, that's my two cents for the moment on the major point of the post. I may be back with more on things like economics, later.   Cerfestas 4:22pm, February 28, 2009 [Edit] [Delete] I'm with Gany on this point, really. I have played tabletop dice games but I'm not 100% familliar with the systems and how they work. I think for mass-combat situations they're a good idea, especially if the Narrator is involved, because it adds some sense of unpredictability to the outcome to the game, but in smaller scale games I'm not overly sure. As you stated, Stoney, that unpredictability can also be a bad thing. Anyway. I still have some residual trust in people when it comes to one on one combat, in that they won't make a big deal out of it if something doesn't go their way, but I know this isn't true. I think perhaps it would be best to test it out, as stated, and see how this works out on a small and massive scale, as well as make it voluntary (although I see conflicts arising out of this, too, over one person wanting to use it while another doesn't.) But, I think either way someone'll find a way to cry fowl on both systems, be it either they state that they want a re-roll because the outcome "isn't fair" or their character "has the ability" to land shots perfectly, par example. I think, too, that it's difficult to play with dice when there are no stats involved to compare numbers and abilities with, but that just makes it all unneccessarily complicated by that point and I think it takes away from the game play. I've already dealt with this in another room to the point where being able to hear a conversation going on 10 feet from you was rolled on. Anyway, it seems I teeter to both sides, so... Just see how it goes, I suppose.   Mark 8:05pm, February 28, 2009 [Edit] [Delete] I would first like to see that I would like to see a dice-based system adopted for the chat. I agree with both Gany and Cerf though that some people would still complain - this is not an end all be all solution to the moding problem. It will always be a problem. The two biggest problems I see are here: 1) Monetary Value - people just have no grasp of this. "I have ten chainsaws, sixteen vibroblades and a cortosis armor full combat suit with built in flame thrower and rocket boots that doesn't restrict my abilities at all." For an example, see any of Vince's profiles. Some kind of system would alleviate this, but would also prove over all to be too restrictive to RP. Is there a solution here? Maybe. I believe there is still a post up here on the boards with a table spelling out basic costs of goods, but that doesn't mean people pay attention to it. I'm not sure the adoption of any kind of system for this would work. 2) Stat Generation - generating a character in RCR is a pain in the freaking neck. Level 8 characters start with something like 80 skill points all of which have to be assigned 1 at a time. Saga edition is better - but there's still a ridiculous number of things you have to pick between to generate your character, some of which are utterly useless. Additionally, most people put development time into their characters story, rather then their abilities. At the same time without some kind of stat generation you end up with characters who are built to god-mode. That is, they can do anything and everything every single time without a single chance of fail. Again, see any of Vince's profiles for examples. My conclusions, therefore, are that some kind of system for generating characters would be good and useful, so long as it streamlines the process to a merely annoying step in the process rather then an hour of development. Stoney's suggestion above of giving people 'roles' and basing their abilities on them is a good one, I think, with a simple (20 items, maybe?) list of skills that are affected by the classes. That would help balance peoples characters appropriately. I would also like to see some kind of monetary system adopted to organize the costs of things in the chat. People placing 100,000 credit bounties and flying around in fleets of their own star destroyers because their company can afford it is getting a little ridiculous, as has the proliferation of lightersaber/force blocking/resistant materials. I would think bringing those two thinks into balance could only create a better RP experiance, rather then the one we have now - where some people balance their characters and are over shadowed by those who think RPing is a chance to own everything and everyone.   Jaret Snomel 8:09pm, February 28, 2009 [Edit] [Delete] I too throw my support in favor of Dice based. I mean it's not built into the chat for nothing. AND it would curb any fights stemming from RP uh...battles.   RiaBear 4:36am, March 01, 2009 [Edit] [Delete] The thing about dice-based systems is that there are some rolls the GM makes behind the screen. This way, if the outcome is not desirable for the plot, the GM can "cheat" or reroll or whatever, to make things better. So what happens when a high level character rolls a 1 on supremely important action of some sort? Someone will complain that it's unfortunate and unpleasant to rely on chance instead of the merit of someone's language or creative skills, etc. I feel that in general, although less so in this chat, there's a divide between people who RP for the story, and people who RP in order to show some kind of prowess or one-up someone else's character in combat. In the first case, complications are usually worked out OOC in private, and administrators are rarely needed. In the other case, dice would remove everything enjoyable about the combat situation. If the goal is to win against someone because of your own skill, and instead you leave it up to chance, you really can't brag about it or feel satisfied afterward. In my opinion, although it might be sometimes useful, adding a dice system is likely to make things more complicated and more awkward than necessary. If the system is voluntary, how would we handle a situation in which one character wants to use dice and the other one doesn't? I'm also not certain that we'll be able to come to an agreed-upon solution for character leveling, either. For instance, on the one hand, I understand that for the sake of realism, not every character in the chat should be able to reach 20th level, have super awesome and rare weapons, or be rich. On the other hand, when playing a table-top session, it's pretty much agreed upon that player characters are "special" in some way, and that's why they become central to the plot, level up more quickly, have better stats than NPCs, etc. In this chatroom, obviously, we're all player characters, so we all /should/ be special, no matter how silly and unrealistic that may seem. If our characters weren't special or interesting in some way, why would we be playing them? Sometimes, we need to suspend our disbelief for the sake of fun. Ultimately, I think we're all here to have fun. In my opinion, rolling dice is far less fun than writing and getting to decide on your own what happens or doesn't happen to your character. I'm certainly not against other people rolling dice if they find it more fun. But I believe it's far too easy, despite everyone's best efforts, to get bogged down in rules and numbers and forget that we're all just playing a game. I'd prefer that, whenever the outcome is contested, we just find an outcome that would be the most enjoyable for the majority of the involved players, and leave any other considerations out of it.   N 4:50am, March 01, 2009 [Edit] [Delete] I think the biggest problem with combat is that people bog down simple things in too much detail. The end result is usually some retarded argument over what degree angle someone swung a blade at or how one person can seem to concentrate unhindered to use some elaborate skill while being attacked and then claim another combatant is cheating for doing the same to stop their own actions. A dice system isn't really needed, common sense just needs to be in place(and/or enforced!).   Stoney 5:58am, March 01, 2009 [Edit] [Delete] Well, Ria, I think that voluntary means that all players involved in the RP would have to agree to the dice..if one person agrees and another doesn't, then no d20 RP takes place... As for getting bogged down in rules, I agree absolutely, but sometimes I feel bogged down in freeform ambiguity... Also, are people happy with the state of the economy and factions? Are there any organizational systems, whether involving dice or not, that might help us there? Edited 5:59am, March 01, 2009 by Stoney, author.   Impersonating Mark 7:47am, March 01, 2009 [Edit] [Delete] I am not happy with either the economy or the factions. It seems anyone (Vince) can create their own faction that owns Star Destroyers. It's one thing entirely to have the money to be able to buy a Star Destroyer - but anyone whose read Star Wars books (Which is NOT Vince) would know that during wartime especially purchasing military hardware is going to be a difficult prospect. The end of Bacta War shows us just how much the New Republic is afraid of a Star Destroyer in private hands. To break away from the Vince bashing, the Black Sun, which is barely a shadow of it's former self and has lost access to the primary crime worlds of the galaxy (like Nar Shadda and Nal Hutta) apparently is doing better then ever with a multi-million credit starhook orbiting Coruscant. I would like to see tighter faction management, needless to say.   RiaBear 5:14pm, March 01, 2009 [Edit] [Delete] Setting rules for the economy and limiting the amount of money our characters can have seems like a poor idea to me. So what if the Black Sun is super rich again? As far as I can tell, they haven't done anything to disrupt or diminish anyone else's RP, and meanwhile, they're having fun with it. If you have specific issues with one player, Mark, you should bring those issues to the administrators. But it seems pretty unreasonable to set up rules and limitations to penalize everybody, just because you have a problem with the way one player chooses to set up his character(s). In general, we respect and trust each other enough that all of our characters could potentially be rich, famous, or super-powerful if we wanted them to be, without disrupting each other's RP. Why limit the kinds of characters we can play, and thereby limit our enjoyment of the RP? If someone has repeatedly proved that he or she uses his characters in a way that's detrimental to other people's characters or plot, that person should be dealt with privately. But otherwise, particularly in this chat, we're all mature enough to create whatever characters we wish and RP with each other in a way that's enjoyable and satisfactory for all.   Cerfestas 5:18pm, March 01, 2009 [Edit] [Delete] As for the economy, I can't overly say I'm satisified with how it's going. I think there needs to be some rules in state concerning that, or at least have each faction list off how much they're worth, as I've done in Jonas' profile. It isn't complete, but considering that the Eclipse just gave him 6-million credits it's fairly safe to assume that he's wealthy. But that's something that was played out. It's nice to assume that you're the richest person in the Galaxy, but if you've done nothing in the room to PROVE that, nor if you have it somewhere listed/stated somewhere such as on the board or a profile, then your word is worth nothing. You're just another Godmoder pulling money and resources out of your ass instead of random powers. I agree with Mark, too. I don't think anyone but the Imps and Republic should have access to the resources to own a Star Destroyer, or some sort of equivilant. The chat's at war, and I doubt anyone would want to sell something like that to some private company or single person. It doesn't make sense. Logically how many people own aircraft carriers and F18's in real life? Fully armored tanks? *edit: 6 million, not 600. Mistake, my bad* Edited 7:54pm, March 01, 2009 by Cerfestas, author.   Mark 7:22pm, March 01, 2009 [Edit] [Delete] I already pointed out, Ria, it's multiple factions that seem to be abusing the rules of free-form RP, and multiple characters (some of whom have already been registered by the admins). I think tighter control is needed over factions and equipment in general, as well as things like bounties and credit rewards - they're being skewed in the unrealistically high end right now and it takes some of the thrill out of the game when anyone and everyone can get a 600 million credit payday and suddenly not have to worry about money anymore. Individuals just don't have that kind of wealth, and the factions that have that much liquid currency sitting around aren't going to pay it out to any one person.   Cerfestas 7:53pm, March 01, 2009 [Edit] [Delete] *coughs* Correction, it is 6 million, not 600 million *sweatdrop* Ooops!  Starships & Space Stations (AND Factions!) Stoney 7:55pm, March 01, 2009 [Edit] [Delete] Hi guys! I just wanted to show you how the cost of ships and space stations is integrated with faction organization, and propose a standard pricing system for ships, so that there is no arguing about what is reasonable. Essentially, if you have the credits and the way of purchasing the ship (the ship is not specifically only for military use, etc.) then you can have it, and you incur the appropriate costs and your wealth goes down. Now most of the ships listed are probably restricted for military use or other reasons, and I’d be more than happy to see lists of these (you can just repost my list and mark the ones that are restricted with a *). Additionally, this list also opens up the possibility of a system for building complex ships, and I think that alone is exciting and useful. Food for thought: people could accrue a monthly income in realtime (or we could set a quicker pace for the time) and also have costs for their faction. Personally I think it would be unsavory to have every character need to keep track of his or her wealth monthly, but it may be fruitful and even better for the RP if factions did so as a whole (and individual characters within factions essentially knew what resources they had to play around with/what restrictions on the resources they had existed, as well as consequences for violation). Now, why is putting everything in monetary terms helpful to the RP? Why can’t we just freeform roleplay it? Because it isn’t fair to accuse anybody of cheating for having anything if we don’t have some kind of system that determines how much is too much. And also, faction leaders can understand exactly how much they could get out of decommissioning, say, a Star Destroyer and putting the money from the hardware and materials sold on the black market (or in the case of legitimate factions given back to producers). By how much they could get I mean that they would know how much wealth they now have to put into something else like R&D, criminal activities, or upgrades for other ships. Faction leaders will also know how much money and time they must spend to craft new ships, and we could establish how long the ship would take to build. Starships of the Galaxy, a supplement to the Star Wars RPG Core Rulebook, uses the notion of “construction points” and dividing ships amongst a number of slips (segments of the shipyard) in order to calculate construction time. The book notes “Thus, a Super Star Destroyer built at a high quality shipyard and divided among 12 slips could be built in a little less than 88 weeks, or roughly 1.7 years.” This is where we could decide whether we want realtime construction or if we wanted to speed it up. Personally I think that it should take months or even a year or more for the largest of capital ships to be built, and that’s in realtime, but other people should weigh in on this issue as well. As for cost, I’m not exactly sure what the deal is. I think it’s assumed that the raw materials for crafting any of the ships is a third of the base price (the price for a new model of the ship, which is why it’s frustrating to see that some of these ships are simply marked for cost as “Not for sale”). Anyone who knows the Revised Core Rules better is welcome to help me with this issue. Anyone who wants the PDF Starships of the Galaxy is welcome to contact me via AIM, though AIM doesn’t transfer files well, so I suggest using either MSN or Skype. For the ships listed below the new price is listed as well as the used (the used price is in parentheses). If only one price is listed, that is the price to buy a new one (unless otherwise stated). All prices are given in terms of Republic credits. Space Stations Executor (listed as a space station) - 1,143,350,000 Golan Space Defense Station - 26,191,000 Golan II Space Defense Station - 28,988,000 Golan Space Defense Station NovaGun - 39,435,000 Skyhook - 25,000,000 StarForge Station (not the one from KOTOR) - 429,480,000 Torpedo Sphere - 327,830,000 Capital ships Bothan Assault Cruiser - 97,000,000 Carrack Light Cruiser - 19,148,000 Corellian Corvette - 3,500,000 (1,500,000) Corellian Gunship - 4,800,000 Corellian Space Cruiser - 850,000 (550,000) Defender Star Destroyer - 168,528,000 Dreadnaught - 35,555,000 Escape Pod - 20,000 Hapan Battle Dragon - 68,470,000 Hapan Nova Battle Cruiser - 19,721,000 Imperial Escort Carrier - 9,775,000 Imperial Star Destroyer - Not for sale Imperial II Star Destroyer - 145,670,000 Imperial Star Galleon - 17,503,500 Immobilizer 418 (Interdictor) - 52,240,000 Lancer Frigate - 4,760,000 Marauder Corvette - 2,398,000 Mon Calamari MC80 Star Cruiser - Not for sale Mon Calamari MC90 Star Cruiser - 131,800,000 Nebulon-B Escort Frigate - Not for sale Republic Assault Ship - 29,000,000 (19,000,000) System Patrol Craft - 3,342,000 Trade Federation Battleship - Not for sale Victory Star Destroyer - 57,000,000 Space Transports Action IV Bulk Freighter - 945,000 Assault Shuttle - 855,000 Barloz Medium Freighter - 120,000 Citadel Cruiser - 205,000 Deathraven - 609,000 Firespray-31 - 120,000 (30,000) Firespray-31 (modified, Slave I) - 380,000 (220,000) Gallofree Medium Transport - 350,000 (125,000) Imperial Customs Guardian-class Light Cruiser - Not for sale Jade Sabre - 1,675,500 Royal Starship - 1,365,000 Skipray Blastboat - 624,000 Star Shuttle - 2,650,000 Vibre-class Assault Cruiser - 2,259,000 YT-1300 - 100,000 (25,000) YT-2400 - 130,000 (32,000) Starfighters A-9 Vigilance Interceptor - 130,000 A-Wing - 175,000 B-Wing - 220,000 B-wing/EZ - 250,000 CloakShape Fighter - 83,000 Droid Starfighter - 19,000 (5,000) Escape Pod - E-Wing: Type B - 200,000 Gun Tug - 142,000 I-7 Howlrunner - 165,000 Jedi Starfighter - 180,000 (145,000) Lambda Shuttle - 240,000 Miy'til Fighter - 210,000 Miy'til Assault Bomber - 200,000 Naboo N-1 Starfighter - Not for sale Phoenix hawk Light Pinnace - 112,000 Scimitar Assault Bomber - 112,000 Svelte-Class Imperial Shuttle - 280,000 T-65AC4 X-Wing - 200,000 (180,000) T-65B X-Wing - 150,000 (65,000) TIE Advanced x1 - 96,000 TIE Bomber - 150,000 TIE Fighter - 60,000 (25,000) TIE Interceptor - 120,000 Y-wing - 135,000 (65,000) Z-95 Headhunter- 80,000 (45,000) Airspeeders They can't go in space, but in d20 the combat rules for airspeeders and starships are similar, so they're included here as well. Bespin Motors Storm IV Cloud Car - 20,000 (10,000) Coruscant Air Taxi - 20,000 (10,000) Desler Gizh Outworld Mobility Corp Koro-2 Airpseeder - 24,800 (16,400) Incom T-47 Airspeeder - 12,000 (6,000) Incom T-47 Airspeeder (modified, snowspeeder) - 25,000 (black market, used only) MandalMotors Shadow v Combat Airspeeder - 50,000 (25,000) Republic Attack Gunship - 65,000 (40,000) Single Trooper Aerial Platform (STAP) - 10,000 (black market, used only)   Mark 8:08pm, March 01, 2009 [Edit] [Delete] Maybe we could develop a table that says a Level 1 faction has x amount of members, x amount of ships, x amonth of credits...and then people would just need to know what level faction they have.  Factional Services & Activities Stoney 8:57pm, March 01, 2009 [Edit] [Delete] Well, I honestly think that either the faction leader or an appointed "accountant" or group of them can figure out what resources the faction has and what they amount to, and that it should be tailored to a specific faction, not put into a category of levels (we don't have so many factions where that kind of system would be needed anyway). In my opinion, we should be defining all the different kinds of activities a faction can do--for example, what are the costs in credits and revenue generated (and overall profit) for the drug-smuggling operations of the Black Sun on a single world? Or what is the New Republic's financial solvency for massive military operations/crisis situations where seizing large amounts of private sector resources would be necessary? We could, for each faction, list in addition to space stations, starships, shipyards, ground bases/faction-owned buildings and vehicles the services or activities the faction is currently undergoing and where, as well as the monthly cost/income/profit, both for individual activities and as a whole. This is no small task! But we have a variety of good materials we could draw on, maybe people who play turn-based/RTS strategy games like Star Wars Rebellion or similar. Also, economics majors would be a great help! In the end we should keep things as simple as possible, and try to list reasonably the total amount of credits a faction has at its disposal, as well as what credits are currently tied up in various activities. Maybe some factions have a lot of extra money for miscellaneous things, whereas others spend most of their money just to maintain things, with only a few million credits (or less) overhead to worry about special projects.   Cerfestas 8:58pm, March 01, 2009 [Edit] [Delete] quote: Maybe we could develop a table that says a Level 1 faction has x amount of members, x amount of ships, x amonth of credits...and then people would just need to know what level faction they have That's what I've been trying to say =P  Faction Members/Hierarchies Stoney 9:28pm, March 01, 2009 [Edit] [Delete] You're right Mark, insofar as we need to also list things like members as well, not just money (although people could be quantified in terms of the cost of paying them). Here's one interesting organizational model of factions drawn from the book Lords of Darkness (not SW at all but from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting): Headquarters: The location of the agency's headquarters, if any. Members: The group's approximate population. Hierarchy: Classification of the general nature of the hierarchy, which determines various factors as described below: Loose: In this type of organization, teh only constant is change. Leaders come and go as easily as the weather changes. Something other than a charismatic leader keeps this group working as a unit. Perhaps the members all worship the same deity, or all share a hatred of one race. Members know their leaders, openly welcome recruits, and usually rely on brawn rather than brain and on passion rather than premeditation. Militaristic: This type of organization maintains a strict hierarchy. Order s come down from the top. Members obey their superiors. The leader could be an individual or a committee, but the highest level of authority remains isolated from the lesser members. Segmented: This type of hierarchy has pods or branches that function independently of one another. Sometimes these branches serve redundant purposes, but don't know about each other. Other times, the branches may complement one another and work together closely. Only the highest levels of the hierarchy know the whole structure. They create hidden subsidiaries to protect their assets in time of trouble, to diversify their contacts, and to maintain their secrecy. Webbed: A webbed hierarchy has cells connected by a single linking thread. A cell could be an individual or a small group. Members know only other members with whom they have direct contact. These organizations don't have a clearly traceable hierarchy. They're layered in deep secrecy, and even those in the highest level of the organization don't know all their agents. Religion/Ideology: Maybe we could generalize this to motives, but it would be particularly valuable for the Eclipse. Secrecy: How secretive the group is, as follows: High: members know only their immediate superiors, underlings, and others they work with frequently. Information is passed through intermediaries and is often in code. Only those at the highest levels of authority know the true agenda of the group, and if multiple people are at this level, they all may have their own secret agenda. Members communicate with outsiders via disguises, aliases, and anonymous messages. Medium: Members know their superiors and inferiors, one step up and down the chain of command. Mid-level agents are usually informed of major plans, or at least how their role affects the plan. Few members are open about their affiliation, and the lowest-level agents may be unaware that they work for the organization at all. Low: Members of the organization know most of the other members, particularly the leaders. Some effort is made to conceal the identity of important individuals from the common folk. Outsiders know the affiliation of many members, and some flaunt their relationship and status with the group. None: The group works entirely in the open and makes no efforts to conceal its agenda, headquarters, or operatives. Members are easily recognized, and most people are familiar with the nature of the organization and its ultimate goals. Symbol: A cool faction symbol! Motivations & Goals: This may be the objectives of the organization, along with the typical actions and activities used to achieve those ends. Recruiting: How the organization gains new members. This could be anything from enslavement to impressment to legitimately soliciting aid. Also, if the organization is a government, is there a draft for military service? Allies: A description of the faction’s alliances and relationships to other factions that are not enemies (may not necessarily be allies, but as long as they’re not enemies, the description could go here). Enemies: A description of the relationships to the factions that it opposes, whether or not the factions are at war, etc. Maybe we could apply this model internally to specific organizations, as well as expand them somewhat. The New Republic itself may have a hierarchy described as "Representative Democracy (Unicameral Legislature)" but the hierarchy of the NR Navy could be listed as "Militaristic." The amount of this information that gets put out publicly will probably also be determined by the secrecy of the faction itself. The NR for example, may publicly post its recruiting activities, while the Black Sun will not. The NR will want to publicly exclaim its allies, enemies (in most situations, that is; faction leaders could also write a separate description for higher-level members or for admins). Remember too, I don’t want to make faction leaders feel as if they’re about to be assaulted by work. I myself am not going to be able to come out with huge essays on organizational structures so often myself. There are a number of cooperative ways of getting this done within factions, and we could create a template for factional organization called “Faction X” or similar, and then everyone could use it as a model (if the admins found the structure useful). Edited 9:30pm, March 01, 2009 by Stoney, author.   Cerfestas 9:40pm, March 01, 2009 [Edit] [Delete] I like this, Stoney. I think that it could easily be filled out by people who run the factions instead of making the admins do all the work. I think there also needs to be a section that lists off the resources too, though; Ships in space, on land, their approximate monitary worth. It should be as detailed as possible, too, but have disclaimers for each section stating that the specific information is classified In Character, souly for the purpose of freedom of information for people who wish to be a part of that faction.  Formalizing the Template Stoney 10:55pm, March 01, 2009 [Edit] [Delete] Yes Cerf, you're absolutely right, I'll start working on a template that's like the rough draft of a faction, and if I'm missing anything we can add it in. Thus far we have the following broad categories it seems - Factional Description (see previous post, contains info on motivations, allies, etc.) - Services/Activities/Taxes, and the revenue/profit generated as well as cost incurred - Surplus/Deficit, it might be interesting if the admins want to decide whether or not the massive governments (IR, NR, etc.) have a surplus or deficit, but for smaller factions this could simply mean extra credits that are in a kind of savings account or various accounts or whatever. - Starships/Vehicles, and the approximate value of each, and the total value - Space Stations/shipyards/bases/other buildings in air, space, sea, or ground, the value of each, and the total value :: are we going to need to have a list of different kinds of shipyards/buildings, and their approximate value too? - Holdings, in terms of planets, mineral wealth, etc. Anything missing?   Cerfestas 11:02pm, March 01, 2009 [Edit] [Delete] That seems to be fairly thorough enough =)   RiaBear 8:53am, March 02, 2009 [Edit] [Delete] How did we get from proposing a potential voluntary dice-rolling system to mandating that every faction leader needs to go get degrees in accounting, political science, and who knows what else? Whatever happened to this post not being about "making people play by the rules"? When it comes to the major plot, the admins already generally know which factions have what resources. Can an NR fighter pilot afford to buy a bigger house than an Imperial fighter pilot? Who cares? They're not likely to go home any time soon, anyway. It seems that, unfortunately, this post is suddenly less about people agreeing to certain rules they want their own characters to abide by, and much more about which characters/factions/players are "moding" and being "unrealistic" and "having more resources than they should." This is a very unpleasant situation to be in, particularly because now we've gone and named names, such as "Vince" and apparently "Black Sun." Okay, so now what? Neither Vince nor anyone from the Black Sun has posted here yet to describe what they think is fair or realistic. So what happens when you guys (seemingly without any administrative approval) continue on this path and set up some particularly restrictive rules about how much money individual characters and factions should be allowed to have? What if the people you've been complaining about don't agree to follow these rules? It sounds to me like they've already decided how much money/other resources they want their characters to have, and you're not likely to talk them out of it. Now instead of your personal feelings about what cheaters/moders they are, you'll have some rules and numbers (based partially on whatever "realistic" and "legitimate" sources you may find, and partially on your personal feelings about what's fair) to prove that they're cheaters. It's not going to change the fact that you think what they're doing is unfair, and they probably think that your attempts to restrict them are unfair and unreasonable. Stoney's original post was a good idea. People who want to abide by certain rules and numbers in order to minimize conflict among themselves are obviously welcome to do so. But suddenly you're talking about what faction leaders in general should be required to do, and what supposedly reasonable limitations you want to place on other characters and other people's factions. This kind of talk is very likely to cause discord, especially because the people you're trying to limit are so far not even bothering to take part in this discussion. How well do you think that bodes for their likelihood to follow the rules that you're establishing? Again, I think the spirit of this discussion is excellent. If you find enough like-minded people who want to be less freeform in their roleplaying, then great, go ahead and work out the details for yourselves. But you're never going to get 100% compliance for these systems. So it's a good idea, right now, to take a step back, and agree that this isn't about weeding out the cheaters and the moders, or making it harder for people to cheat or mode. We're all friends here, or most of us are, anyway, and we shouldn't accuse each other of being dishonest. As far as I know, nobody in this chat room is here specifically to cheat other players out of anything. So could we please reframe this discussion as "rules that Stoney, Cerf, and Mark (and anyone else interested) agree to abide by in order to settle any conflicts that may arise between themselves and their factions" as opposed to "rules that Stoney, Cerf, and Mark (and anyone else) believe that everyone should abide by, or else they should be considered cheaters and moders?" What I'm worried about here is that, despite the fact that you began this as an exploratory discussion for willing players, people who spend their time crunching numbers and rolling dice will be considered "real, honest" RPers, and people who prefer pure freeform will be held under suspicion as potential cheaters. Worse still, if rolling dice is suddenly the only "honest" way to RP, it might become a requirement for getting involved in the main admin-approved plot. Sure, this might make things easier for the admins, but it's also likely to scare away some of the people who don't like dice. I think we all know that scaring people away is not very good for the success of a chatroom, particularly when we already have a rather limited player base. Edited 9:02am, March 02, 2009 by RiaBear, author.   Mazzik 2:11pm, March 02, 2009 [Edit] [Delete] I agree with Ria. She's said everything that I have been unable to articulate since the start of this discussion. Dice rolling, at least on my part of it, will not become a requirement for the main admin-approved plot. Will it be used in certain GM or Narrator RPs to make things easier on the GM/more unpredictable for the player? Probably. I agree that it is fine, also, between to consenting players. As for the concern of stigma, I should hope there won't be a stigma attached to those that use dice in private RPs. I won't be using dice, but I don't want a stigma. We'll see how that plays out. As Ria said, I appreciate the spirit in which this is being spoken of and carried out in, but I cannot appreciate the depth that this is being taken to. I can just envision forms being made up very soon and sent to faction leaders asking them, in effect, to list their in-game assets and what-have-you. I don't like that. It doesn't matter that much. It's a game. Have administrative decisions (by me, entirely, as I did the bulk of the registering at the start) been made in error regarding certain elements of the roleplay? Yes. But did I make them as calculated errors, knowing what I was doing and hoping that it would work toward some greater good? Yes. I think so. Am I going to explain those here, or at all? No. V knows why I did what I did registration-wise, and with the exception of a certain Gungan Jedi Master, generally agrees, or at least doesn't oppose, me. I'm just going to ask you guys to be careful and to be thoughtful. I'm not going to shut down conversations or censor ideas, but taking novel ideas too far can alienate people and cause rifts, sometimes. That's the last thing we need, in my opinion. I'm out of my mind with excitement as to the response we've gotten from people wanting to play at SoD. Never in a million years would I have thought we'd get so many people in here and be anything more than a nostalgia factory. Just like never in a million years did I think we'd see players like E, Jim, or lc again. It's amazing to me, and I don't want to see it ruined by squabbling for these things or those things that don't really have any effect on the overall plot, you know? Talk to me on IM, phone or text me -- I think by now everyone in chat has my number -- and we can work through any problems you see in the chat. And, with that, I'm off to class.   Cerfestas 6:15pm, March 02, 2009 [Edit] [Delete] I think instead of turning this into a mud-slinging contest as to who said what, which way, why, and because, I'm just going to go as far as to state that as far as this discussion goes, it's just that. A discussion. For all I know and care, the admins will say "no, fuck off" and that's okay because it's within their power. No one, as far as I am concerned (including myself) has stated that everything discussed here are RULES. Infact, I think the MOTD should be changed to reflect this because the way it looks, all these things we've talked about ARE rules. There seems to be some issues arising over this discussion, about an implication of stats, who uses dice and who doesn't, and I think it needs to stop. V has already stated numerous times that all this is speculative, experimental, and it may not even continue. No means no. I think this in-fighting needs to stop, too. I'd like to think that we're all mature people on some level, and this(as Ria pointed out) seems to be turning into a finger pointing competition. So now everyone knows what each-other things, and that's great. It is nice to see that the admins are so open minded to new ideas, but a line needs to be drawn. As far as I'm concerned, this discussion should be laid to rest in the hands of the admins now that everything is on the table. Anyway, that's my piece. I'm done, off to class.   Mark 7:03pm, March 02, 2009 [Edit] [Delete] All I have to say on the matter is this: We have a list of restrictions put into place when you register a character that require you to be detailed and through so that there are no complaints later about someone suddenly having powers/items/starships that the shouldn't really have access to. This turns the character creation time into a thought-provoking research driven time consuming action that ensures we don't end up with things in the chat room that make this place feel un-realistically Star Wars. If you want to create your own faction - or play one of the existing factions - I think you should be required to do exactly the same thing for your faction, which includes listing faction resources, credit amounts, and enemies and allies. Quite frankly, if you aren't willing to put that much time into the creation of the faction, I have a hard time believing you're going to be able to put the time and energy into the role-play required to lead it. What I am asking for is no more then what you already do for a character, save it is applied instead to a faction.  Tone of Discussion Stoney 7:39pm, March 02, 2009 [Edit] [Delete] I agree with most of what Cerf, Ria, and Mazzik have said. And I made a mistake (a series of mistakes, in fact), as I implied that I was going to give the admins the system and that faction leaders would somehow be bound to them. I also wrote "rules," when I should have--I meant in the sense of "organizing principles, definitions of terms," not "chat rules," or mandates, or ordinances. I agree that the discussion should be kept to just that, a discussion. I have changed the name of the MOTD link to "Org. Systems," because they're just that, drawn from a variety of source material. Where I disagree strongly, Cerf, is with the notion that I've laid everything out here, and that it's finished. The possibilities I've laid out are just the tiniest speck of the tip of the iceberg. Also, not for nothing, but some of these questions (and the answers I've provided) are very helpful to the chat. How long does it take for a faction (or company) with access to the requisite resources take to make an SSD? C'mon, you guys can't tell me that that's useless, even in freeform. I'm not talking about ways of governing people, but sometimes these technical questions have already been set into a system or at least generally answered/defined. All I'm doing is gathering it all up and talking about it, and saying let's talk some more about it; I mean have I bored anybody? I certainly don't find this boring. And I find the people sneering at me as some kind of pedantic clod trying to force things on people is absurd. I'm trying to open up new possibilities for roleplay. Also, I'm not in any sense the "moderator" of the thread, but I do dislike Mark's characterizations of Black Sun and Vince, and I disagree with them. I was pleased to note that Hyper liked some of my ideas, but they were just ideas, and that's where they'll stop. V has always been a most noble and moderate leader of SoD, and it will be a cold day in hell before he imposes arcane rules on us that we never wanted. Additionally, I am disappointed that the conversation thus far has only been between roughly 3 people or so consistently. I really do want to hear more from everyone. But let's keep things straight. I just want people to know how long it might take if they wanted to build a corvette from scratch, if they were interested in that sort of thing, and I think that these discussions should be out in the open, and that people can see them and use ideas from them, but I don't want to impose them as edicts! Edited 7:49pm, March 02, 2009 by Stoney, author.   N 8:01pm, March 02, 2009 [Edit] [Delete] This is more of things getting too complicated. All that's really needed is an admin or someone to step in and just say something like "Black Sun's money came from illegal shit, mainly those black markets in Hutt Space.... said planets just got blown the fuck up, thusly the resources it'd be bringing in are gone." Are groups of glorified street crews really, legitimately sporting the same degree of arsenal major governmental militaries have? Like I said, we just need someone to enforce common sense, a crippled and broken mafia shouldn't even have a chance to pump out an SD regardless of whether or not they can scrape together the money... shipyards should be too busy supplying the heavy NR/Imp/etc contracts to even consider them.  Personal Equipment Stoney 12:05am, March 03, 2009 [Edit] [Delete] Personal Equipment ***Anyone interested in the Arms & Equipment Guide can contact me*** The ideas hopefully generated by this list could be used in a person’s profile to describe their weapons (as I know people often like to do, so hopefully this will give them fodder to draw from), and some of these weapons can be googled to get a picture of what they look like (and I believe all have drawings for them in the Arms & Equipment guide), but I hope also to highlight how outdated some of these models are by the time that SoD is going on. Do people see more modern blasters as having better damage, accuracy, or what? Also, in terms of broader philosophy, what does it mean if people want to playtest more exotic and strange weaponry? Would we ever be comfortable with characters dying more? It might be interesting to have a character made solely for combat within an RP with someone else where you really don’t care if she/he dies. Now if this cluttered up chat too much with combat, it could always be taken to /ds/, or elsewhere to avoid clutter. Could even divide between the two rooms, using /ds/ to dump all our dice rolls to cut down on dicespamming annoyance. Some of these weapons are archaic, like Pulse-Wave blasters, but according to the Arms & Equipment guide still see use on the Outer Rim and in Wild Space. Maybe there are comparative advantages/disadvantages, maybe not. Remember the cheaper pistols suck and are apt to break, so if you want to create a backwoods hillbilly type, the Elmainin SBP-200 might be an interesting model to show that. Some guns are just fascinating for roleplay, like the Field Sports Air Pistol, a slugthrower that is rarely confiscated because it looks like a toy and comes in a whole rainbow of colors (according the description). The Kelvarek slugthrower apparently has armor-eating acid on it. The Xana Exotic Arms Molecular Stiletto creates a 30-cm long blade that’s only a molecule wide that can cut opponents down. The Squib Tensor rifle uses a tractor-beam like technology, disrupting cells, and apparently dealing more damage to the target the more it hits with consecutive shots. Neat! Armor is another interesting one, and also likely to be a bone of contention in the future. The Karflo Corporation Thinsuit is pretty cool, giving no real combat protection but basically keeping you warmer or cooler and insulating from environmental effects. Other forms of powered armor/powersuits could be controversial, but probably have enough combat drawbacks where they might be deemed reasonable (though always ask the admins concerning uncommon equipment). As for me, I would love if it V told us about some kind of blackmarket of Ne’kressis weaponry taken off of them after battle, but this is probably just fantasy. At any rate, here’s a preliminary list. See also http://pjj.cc/swrpg/jbb/?pid=6768 for reference, as that was the true start of attempts at itemization. Thanks to V for posting that up, and thanks also to Mark for digging that up from 4 or so years ago. The following list is, I hope, a bit more specific, as the Revised Core Rulebook used “blanket terms” whereas the Arms & Equipment Guide showcases models with a bit more specificity. Everything on the list is either from the Revised Core Rulebook, the Arms & Equipment Guide, or the Dark Side Sourcebook (which has the only real coverage of cortosis-weave items I could find). Cortosis is a whole other matter unto itself, but I think that Wizards of the Coast has come up with several interesting ways of dealing with it. Jedi Counseling 18 postulated the use of “cortosis slugs” that would shut off a lightsaber, and set a price at 5,000 credits (which I included here). Jedi Counseling 55 also differentiated between two kinds of weave, a cortosis alloy that stops a lightsaber blade, and a kind (stronger alloy, closer to pure cortosis?) that shuts the lightsaber off as well (this was because of games in which lightsabers encounter cortosis-weave armor that are resistant to it). The cortosis-weave upgrade to armor assumes in this case that it shuts the blade off, but it seems likely that alternative versions are possible. The price modifier is +15,000 credits, but in the Dark Side Sourcebook it was to modify a specific type of armor (so it may be ruled that very large kinds of armor, like powered armor, would cost more to upgrade, or similar – and certain specific armors are probably not very suited to cortosis weaves, like environment thinsuits). So essentially the things that I haven’t dealt with are cortosis-weave melee weapons and the possibility of different alloys of cortosis that either stop or shut the lightsaber off (right now the cortosis just shuts it off). I have also included the Sith sword under exotic weapons, not so much because I expect people would use it, as to compare price/value for similar weapons that could hold a lightsaber at bay (such as the famed Sey’lis crystal daggers). I post this information by stipulating that any and all weapons are, of course, subject to admin approval. As always, prices are listed in Republic credits (though they may vary from era to era): RANGED WEAPONS Blaster Pistols BlasTech DH-17 (Common) - 550 BlasTech DH-23 "Outback" - 500 BlasTech DL-18 - 500 BlasTech DL-22 - 550 Elmainin Armaments SBP-200 - 300 Greff-Timms Industrial ATA Pulse-Wave Blaster - 600 Imperial Munitions/BlasTech KK-5 - 600 Imperial Munitions/SoroSuub SC-4 - 500 Merr-Sonn Model 44 - 500 Merr-Sonn Model 434 "DeathHammer" - 650 Merr-Sonn IR-5 "Intimidator" - 750 (+200 for retractable stock) SoroSuub ELG-3A "Diplomat's Blaster" - 500 Heavy Blaster Pistols BlasTech DL-44/Merr-Sonn "Flash" 4 (Common models) - 750 BlasTech DT-12 - 900 BlasTech DY-225 - 900 BlasTech T-6 "Thunderer" - 900 Caliban Model X - 975 Merr-Sonn "Power" 5 - 825 SoroSuub Model Kylan-3 - 825 SoroSuub "Renegade" - 840 SoroSuub Security S-5 - 900 Hold-out Blasters BlasTech HSB-200 - 360 Czerka 411 - 300 Gee-Tech Defender MicroBlaster - 400 Imperial Munitions Model 22T4 - 360 Merr-Sonn Model B22 "Imperial" - 300 Merr-Sonn Model JI "Happy Surprise" Palm Blaster - 360 Merr-Sonn Model Q2 (Common) - 300 Merr-Sonn Q4 "Quickfire" - 400 Sporting Blaster Pistol Drearian Defense Conglomerate Defender (Common) - 300 Luxan Penetrator MB-450 - 550 Merr-Sonn Model 6 "Quick 6" - 360 SoroSuub X-30 "Lancer" Target Blast Pistol - 330 Blaster Rifles & Carbines Baktoid ARmor Workshop E-5 Droid Blaster - 900 BlasTech 500 "ESPO" Riot Gun - 1,000 BlasTech DLT-20A and A280 Rifles "Longblasters" - 1,300 BlasTech E-11/"Freedom One" (Common) - 1,000 BlasTech Firespray DL-87 Stun Rifle - 1,000 Core World Arms Pulse-Blast Rifle - 2,000 Greff-Timms Industrial Type A Pulse-Wave Rifle - 1,200 Imperial Munitions StarAnvil Heavy Blaster Rifle - 2,000 Merr-Sonn Deck Sweeper Stun Blaster - 2,000 Merr-Sonn Model G8 - 1,100 N'Gant-Zarvel 9118 Heavy Carbine - 990 SoroSuub Firelance Blaster Rifle - 1,200 SoroSuub Heavy Tracker 16 - 1,100 Sporting Blaster Rifles Czerka FS-1 Farshot - 880 Drearian Defense Conglomerate "Light Sport" (Common) - 800 Herloss H8t Hunting Blaster - 880 Merr-Sonn LD-1 Target Blaster Rifle - 1,100 SoroSuub X-45 Sniper Rifle - 1,000 Xerrol Nightstinger - 1,500 Light Repeating Blasters BlasTech T-21 - 2,000 Merr-Sonn Underslung Rotary Blaster Carbine - 2,400 Heavy Ranged Weapons Blaster cannon - 3,000 Blaster, hvy. repeating - 4,000 E-Web - 8,000 Ion Guns Felebreck Electrical Defense Systems Droid Disabler (Pistol) - 250 Homemade Ion Pistol - 300 Merr-Sonn DEMP Ion Carbine (Common) - 800 Merr-Sonn DEMP Ion Pistol (Common) - 250 Disruptor Weapons Merr-Sonn Model MSD-32 Disruptor Pistol - 4,000 Tenloss DX-2 (Common) - 2,250 Tenloss DXR-6 Disruptor (Common) - 3,500 Slugthrower Pistols Czerka Adjudicator - 325 Field Sports Air Pistol - 200 Kelvarek Consolidated Arms Dissuader KD-30 - 350 Driolanis Defense Systems Blaster Buster - 700 Driolanis Defenes System Striker Projectile Pistol - 275 Morellian Weapons Conglomerate Enforcer Pistol - 400 Yctor Arms Black Powder Pistol - 200 Slugthrower Rifles Czerka Adventurer - 360 Dresselian Projectile Rifle (Common) - 300 Prax Arms Protector PRP-502 Hold-Out Shooter - 300 Prax Arms Stealth-2VX Palm Shooter - 360 Slugs Cortosis-weave (50) - 5,000 Regular (50) - 5 Flechette Launchers Golan Arms FC11 - 2,000 Malaxan Firepower Incorporated FWG-5 Flechette Smart Pistol - 800 Salus DF-D1 - 1,200 Crossbows and Magna Casters Drolan Plasteel Repeating Crossbow - 400 Forhard's Glactic Firearms magna Caster-100 - 2,000 Wrist Weapons Drolan Plasteel QuickShot wrist-Caster - 500 Golan Arms Vac Attack Mk-127 - 700 Kelvarek Consolidated Arms MM9 Rocket System - 2,500 Prax Arms LG-5 Laser Gauntlet - 1,500 Primitive & Exotic Ranged Weapons Electro(stun)-net - 300 Net - 25 Sling - 35 Bullets (10) - 5 MELEE WEAPONS Standard Melee Weapons Club/baton - 15 Combat gloves - 200 Drolan Plasteel Sword (Common modern longsword) - 150 Garrote - 50 Knife - 25 Mace, light - 50 Merr-Sonn Snap Baton - 100 Quarterstaff - 65 Ryyk Blade - 500 Sancretti Arms Whip (Common whip) - 100 Spear - 60 Tribal Longspear - 80 Xana Exotic Arms MSW-9 Molecular Stiletto - 700 Vibro Weapons Czerka Great Force Pike - 1,000 Czerka Vibroknucklers - 200 Force pike - 500 LaserHone Duelist Vibrorapier - 500 Merr-Sonn Vibrobayonet - 200 Vibro-ax - 500 Vibroblade - 250 Vibrodagger - 200 Exotic Melee Weapons Atlatl - 50 Cesta (gungan) - 100 Energy balls (10) - 200 Gaderffii - 50 Lightsaber (more a value than a market price, as the item is rare) - 3,000 Lightsaber, double - 7,000 Sith sword - 6,000 Melee Stun Weapons Merr-Sonn Stun Baton - 50 Merr-Sonn Z2 Stun Baton - 700 Palandrix Personal Protection Stun Gauntlets - 500 SoroSuub CS-12 Stun Master - 700 TholCorp Neuronic Whip - 700 GRENADES & OTHER EXPLOSIVES Czerka Chemical Load Grenade (Agent T-238) - 650 Czerka Chemical Load Grenade (Fex-M3) - 1,050 Czerka Chemical Load Grenade (Smoke) - 150 Czerka Chemical Load Grenade (Plank Gas) - 850 Czerka Spore/B Stun Grenade - 700 Greff-Timms 0033X Grenade - 400 Merr-Sonn C-10 Stun Grenade - 600 Merr-Sonn C-14A Stun Grenade - 500 Merr-Sonn C-16 Fragmenation Grenade (Common) - 500 Merr-Sonn C-22 Fragmenation Grenade - 700 Merr-Sonn G-20 Glop Grenade - 600 Merr-Sonn WW-41 Cryoban Grenade - 800 Thermal detonator - 2,000 Grenade Launchers Merr-Sonn GL-11/GL-11sa Handheld - 2,000 Merr-Sonn MobileMortar-3 - 4,000 SoroSuub TTT-54 "Thumper" - 4,000 OTHER WEAPONS & WEAPON SYSTEMS Flame Projectors Czerka CZ Wrist-Mounted Flame Projector - 800 Merr-Sonn Model C-22 Flame Carbine - 500 Merr-Sonn Model CR-24/Czerka CZ-24 - 700 Merr-Sonn Model CR-28/Czerka CZ-2B - 2,500 Sonic Weapons Pacnorval Defense Systems, Limited Sd-77 Sonic Pistol - 1,000 Pacnorval Defense Systems, Limited Sg-82 Sonic Rifle - 2,000 Pacnorval Defense Systems, Limited Sil-50 - 3,000 Species-Specific Ranged Weapons Rheshalva Interstellar Armaments Rodian Repulsor Throwing-Razor - 3,000 (pair) Squib Tensor Rifle - 10,000 Verpine Shatter Gun - 15,000 Weapon Attachments & Accessories BlasTech Ramtek - 750 Merr-Sonn NonSonic Silencer/Flash Suppressor (slugthrower silencer) - 900 Merr-Sonn Targeter Ranging Scope - 750 Novaless Soni-Optics Target Imager - 3,000 ARMOR Light Armor & Protective Suits Ayelixe/Krongbing Textiles Climbsuit - 600 Ayelixe/Krongbing Textiles Shadowsuit - 600 Ayelixe/Krongbing Textiles Tracker Utility Vest - 300 Ayelixe/Krongbing Textiles Tuff1 Combat Suit - 500 Blast Helmet & Vest - 500 Combat Jumpsuit - 1,500 Creshaldyne Industries Barabel Microbe Armor - 15,000 Kamperdine Clothing Specialists Leather Jerkin - 300 (+150 for single modification) Karflo Corporation Thinsuit - 900 Padded Flightsuit - 800 Medium Armor Armored Flightsuit - 4,000 Battle armor, padded - 2,000 Battle armor, medium - 6,000 Creshaldyne Industries Blast-Dampening Armor - 6,000 Creshaldyne Industries Camo Scout Armor - 6,000 Heavy Armor Armored Spacesuit - 10,000 Battle armor, heavy - 12,000 VargeCorp Polarizing Field Insulator Suit - 3,000 Powered Armor Battleframe - 12,000 Corellian powersuit - 10,000 GTU AV-1A Assault Armor - 50,000 GTU AV-1C Combat Armor - 25,000 GTU AV-1S Scout Armmor - 15,000 Regallis Engineering EVA Vacuum Pod - 15,000 Stormtrooper armor - 8,000 Armor Upgrades Cortosis-weave - 15,000 (plus the cost of the armor) OTHER PROTECTIVE GEAR/MISC. EQUIPMENT All-temperature Cloak - 100 Aquata Breather - 350 Ayelixe/Krongbing Textiles Camoflage Poncho - 250 Bacta tank - 100,000 Breath mask - 200 Atmosphere canister/filter - 25 Code cylinder - 500 Comlink - 200 Credit chip - 100 Datapad - 1,000 Datacards, blank (10) - 10 Datacard, 1 program - 300 Electrobinoculars - 1,000 Energy cell - 10 Field kit - 1,000 Flight suit - 250 Fusion lantern - 25 Glow rod - 10 Grappling spike launcher - 50 Holoprojector, personal - 1,000 Holorecorder - 3,000 Liquid cable dispenser - 25 Macrobinoculars - 600 Medical kit - 25 Medpac - 100 Pacnorval Sonic Dampening Helmet - 600 Power pack - 25 Raflkind Industrials Dampener Aerosol - 600 Recording rod - 500 Sensor pack - 1,500 Security kit - 750 Surgery kit - 1,500 Tool kit - 250 SERVICES Meals (per meal) Good - 50 Common - 15 Poor - 5 Lodging (per day) Good - 200 Common - 100 Poor - 50 Medical Care Long-term care (per day) - 250 Medpac treatment - 150 Bacta tank treatment (per 12 hours) - 3,000 Edited 2:05am, March 03, 2009 by Stoney, author.  How much control do faction leaders have? Stoney 2:23am, March 03, 2009 [Edit] [Delete] This is something that I'll probably just ask V about, but it might make for good discussion as well. Can faction leaders just automatically roleplay lower-ranking people in their faction or even sub-faction? Could this apply to high-ranking military personnel, could they do RPs with proxies and representatives of themselves? Obviously they would have less authority, as appropriate, but I wonder what kinds of possibilities and problems this might open. Edited 3:50am, March 03, 2009 by Stoney, author.   Dane Weston 1:03am, March 04, 2009 [Edit] [Delete] Here is my thought. Mark is 100% right. Faction leaders should have to sit down for ten minutes and work up a list of what they have. It shouldn't be hard because they should know. If it is people have been pulling ships and credits out their ass, which I for one hate. You don't have to make this public information, perhaps some sort of submission to V or something. Like character profiles aren't required neither should fraction profiles. The real point of this is to get the leaders to know, not the rest of us. So if a faction leader knows and an admin thinks that they aren't overstepping their bounds I would be fine with that. The point is not to get econ majors involved, but to think about where you got your assets, where they are currently, what they are worth, etc. This gives space battles meaning, because it takes time money and people to replace ships. It also gives you something more to rp as a faction leader since you now have reason to acquire new assets! Basically, if you want to do the crime (being a faction leader) pay the time (Come up with a list of tangible assets). I feel it's not asking too much and it doesn't even involve any sort of rolling for fairness. Make it as detailed or as simple as you want, but put it down onto paper. Now as for the dreaded dice system I feel they aren't perfect, but the system is enjoyable to me for the most part and I'd like to keep involving it in narrated rps if not more. The only problem I see is that to make the dice fair a few stats would have to be made and people seem against that for some reason. I currently have create RCR stat sheets for two out of my three characters and plan to do one for the third sometime soon. It didn't take me that long at all to do and I thought the process was fun. If anyone is interested in a sort of GM run event with full stats leave your names. It's not for everyone, but I think it would add a nice additional layer to the storyline. Edited 1:20am, March 04, 2009 by Dane Weston, author. Index | New Thread | Reply | Close | Stick | Delete